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An survey of the California-Oregon border by Daniel G. Major for the General Land Office found the th meridian more than two miles west of the prior line, so it was followed by the survey by Alexey W. Von Schmidt. Against initial instructions, Von Schmidt began his survey with the California-Nevada State Boundary Marker [62] which was six-tenths of a mile east of the Houghton-Ives line. When he discovered the Colorado River had shifted at the 35th parallel, he simply changed the endpoint resulting in a survey that was neither straight nor accurate.

Substantial doubts led Congress in to fund the United States Coast and Geodetic Survey to remark the oblique line. Congress does not have the constitutional power to unilaterally move state boundaries. The wealth in natural resources between the Sierra Crest and the easternmost sections of survey lines created a powerful source for conflict.

Major mining sites in the Tahoe area were in disputed territory. In a striking display of opportunism which ostensibly occurred because the boundary was still "officially" unsurveyed, settlers arrogated parts of California up to the irregular Sierra Crest tens of miles east of the boundary—defined over six years prior—in an attempt to create Nataqua Territory. An armed skirmish known as the Sagebrush War included gunshots exchanged between militia.

A boundary defined in terms of geographical coordinates is theoretically precise, but poses pragmatic challenges to implement. Where a particular coordinate actually lies on the surface of the earth is dependent on the figure of the Earth.

In the mids the Bessel ellipsoid of or the Clarke ellipsoid of were widely used; the Hayford ellipsoid of may later have been used by the United States Coast and Geodetic Survey. The standard ellipsoid for western states in —which is generally congruent with that year's version of the Astronomical Almanac —is implicit in California's constitutional boundary definition; incessant invention of new datums by new and potentially interested parties do not re-render the old boundary definition.

Holding assumptions of the earth back-in-time, modern satellite assisted survey techniques can determine location and transform them onto old ellipsoids to within a centimeter. Celestial navigation [67] [68] techniques by contrast, are accurate up to two-fifths of a mile; uncertainty in the latter was known, but precision then was unobtainable. The legacy of this dispute continues. The boundary splits Lake Tahoe unevenly, with two-thirds in California and one-third in Nevada.

Lake Tahoe is a U. Navigable Waterway , [73] [74] under federal jurisdiction , [75] [76] [77] and the public is allowed to occupy any watercraft as close to any shore as the craft is navigable. While the submerged lands generally belong to the state, [79] the water held in the lake is federally controlled by the US Bureau of Reclamation , [80] and immersion of the shoreline itself would be a common law trespass against east lakefront property owners if it were not for the land—below the theoretical maximum elevation of the lake—being in a perpetual federal easement.

The entire waterbody is navigable; it is common for the majority of users to be operating negligible draft one-person craft such as kayaks and standup paddleboards.

Like the interstate boundary itself, the high watermark has been disputed as well. The yearly maximum is commonly 0. On the California side, the shorezone is expressly maintained in a constitutionally protected [85] public trust , [86] analogous to an easement , [83] [84] which is managed by the California State Lands Commission.

Building new piers can infringe on the public trust , which among many things, is purposed to preserve the land in its natural state. The accessibility of the Nevada beach-land below the high watermark has been the source of practical rather than legal controversy.

The land is a public trust or easement under the Rivers and Harbors Act , the Submerged Lands Act , and the several Coast Guard Authorization Acts, [78] but affluent beachfront landowners and their elected civic leaders maintain the land is effectively private under state law because state law enforcement is not charged with enforcing federal law. The sheriffs in Nevada are elected officials; false arrest can lead to an official's imprisonment and cost their electorate hundreds of thousands of dollars.

As the population grew and development expanded in the s, the question of protecting the lake became more imperative. In , the U. Congress and the California and Nevada State Legislatures created a unique compact to share resources and responsibilities.

Congress amended the Compact with public law Schisms between both agencies and local residents have led to the formation of grass-roots organizations that hold to even stricter environmentalism. Lake Tahoe is also the location of several 19th and 20th century palatial homes of historical significance.

Vikingsholm was the original settlement on Emerald Bay and included an island teahouse and a room home. Now, after a half-century of accelerated nitrogen input much of it from direct atmospheric deposition , the lake is phosphorus-limited.

Theodore Swift et al. Historic clarity of approximately 98 feet 30 m can be achieved with total reduction of approximately 75 percent from urban sources. Historically, the clarity of Lake Tahoe continued to decrease through , when the average Secchi depth , This represented a decrease of 3. A water quality study by the Lahontan Water Quality Control Board and the Nevada Division of Environmental Protection [] determined the largest source of fine sediment particles: 71 percent is developed area urban erosion and run-off, much of it associated with transportation infrastructure and services.

Lake Tahoe is a tributary watershed drainage element within the Truckee River Basin, and its sole outlet is the Truckee River, which continues on to discharge to Pyramid Lake.

Because of the sensitivity of Truckee River water quality involving two protected species, the cui-ui [] sucker fish and the Lahontan cutthroat trout , this drainage basin has been studied extensively. The primary investigations were stimulated by the U. Lake Tahoe never freezes. Dissolved oxygen is relatively high from top to bottom. Analysis of the temperature records in Lake Tahoe has shown that the lake warmed between and at an average rate of 0.

The warming is caused primarily by increasing air temperatures, and secondarily by increasing downward long-wave radiation. The warming trend is reducing the frequency of deep mixing in the lake, and may have important effects on water clarity and nutrient cycling. Since the s, the Lake's food web and zooplankton populations have undergone major changes. In —65, opossum shrimp Mysis diluviana were introduced to enhance the food supply for the introduced Kokanee salmon Oncorhynchus nerka.

Since the s, the cladoceran populations have somewhat recovered, but not to former levels. Since , goldfish have been observed in the lake, where they have grown to "giant size", behaving like an invasive species.

They may have descended from former pets which owners dumped or escaped, when used as fishing bait. While the impact of ash on the lake's ecosystem is predicted to be minimal, the impact of potential future erosion is not yet known. Until recently, construction on the banks of the Lake had been largely under the control of real estate developers.

Construction activities have resulted in a clouding of the lake's blue waters. Currently, the Tahoe Regional Planning Agency is regulating construction along the shoreline [] and has won two Federal Supreme Court battles over recent decisions.

The League embraces responsible and diversified use of the Lake's resources while protecting and restoring its natural attributes. The objectives of the LTIMP are to acquire and disseminate the water quality information necessary to support science-based environmental planning and decision making in the basin. This data set, together with more recently acquired data on urban runoff water quality, is being used by the Lahontan Regional Water Quality Control Board to develop a program mandated by the Clean Water Act to limit the flux of nutrients and fine sediment to the Lake.

Microplastics were found for the first time in by the Desert Research Institute. This pollution in the water could be local or from locations around the world as particles from discarded plastic products can be transported long distances through the atmosphere by wind, rain and falling snow. The UC Davis Tahoe Environmental Research Center is dedicated to research, education and public outreach, and to providing objective scientific information for restoration and sustainable use of the Lake Tahoe Basin.

Much of the area surrounding Lake Tahoe is devoted to the tourism industry and there are many restaurants, ski slopes , golf courses and casinos catering to visitors.

Lake Tahoe, in addition to its panoramic beauty, is well known for its blizzards. The majority of the ski resorts in the Lake Tahoe region are on the northern end of the lake, near Truckee, California and Reno, Nevada. Kirkwood, Sierra-at-Tahoe and Heavenly are located on the southern side of the lake, 55—75 miles 90— km from Reno.

Scattered throughout Tahoe are public and private sled parks. Some, such as Granlibakken are equipped with rope tows to help sledders get up the hill. Many ski areas around Tahoe also have snow tubing , such as Olympic Valley.

Throughout Tahoe, cross-country skiing , snowmobile riding and snowshoeing are also popular. During late Spring to early Fall, the lake is popular for water sports and beach activities. The two cities most identified with the Lake Tahoe tourist area are South Lake Tahoe, California and the smaller Stateline; smaller centers on the northern shoreline include Tahoe City and Kings Beach.

Other popular activities include parasailing, jet ski rentals, eco-friendly paddle sport rentals and fishing. Kayaking and stand up paddle boards have also become very popular. Boating is a primary activity in Tahoe in the summer. The lake is home to one of the most prestigious wooden boat shows in the country, the Lake Tahoe Concours d'Elegance , held every August.

There are lake front restaurants all over the lake, most equipped with docks and buoys See the restaurants section. There are all sorts of boating events, such as sailboat racing, firework shows over the lake, guided cruises, and more. Diving at Lake Tahoe is considered advanced due to the increased risk of decompression sickness DCS while diving at such a high altitude.

Fred Rogers became the first person to swim the length of Lake Tahoe in , and Erline Christopherson became the first woman to do so in The lake and its scenic environs provide many opportunities for motorcyclists to ride both on and off-road.

The most popular circuit that goes around the lake runs clockwise and starts in South Lake Tahoe on the California side. Continuing onto highway 28 East, and finally, onto US West will complete the full tour. Doing it in reverse allows experiencing the views from a different perspective. Kingsbury Grade highway is another popular route with local motorcyclists. It is only 11 miles long from South Lake Tahoe to Mottsville and can also be ridden in both directions.

Some of the most scenic motorcycling stops and views around the lake :. There are numerous hiking and mountain biking trails around the lake. They range widely in length, difficulty and popularity. One of the most famous of Tahoe's trails is the Tahoe Rim Trail , a mile km trail that circumnavigates the lake. Directly to the west of the lake is the Granite Chief Wilderness , which provides great hiking and wilderness camping.

Also, to the southwest is the very popular Desolation Wilderness. One of the most popular trailheads used to access these popular destinations is Eagle Lake trailhead , located near Emerald Bay on Tahoe's west shore.

There are also many paved off-road bicycle paths that meander through communities on all sides of the lake. Gambling is legal on the Nevada side of Lake Tahoe. Casinos, each with a variety of slot machines and table games are available.

When Nevada legalized gambling in , the first casino at the lake had already been open for years. The Cal-Neva was rebuilt after a fire in and expanded several times, most noticeably in when the high-rise hotel was built. Along the way, Frank Sinatra owned the property in the early s, shared his cabins with the likes of Sam Giancana and Marilyn Monroe , and sold out at the height of the area's popularity.

The Hyatt Regency is found at Incline Village. Lake Tahoe can be reached directly by car, and indirectly by train or air. The nearest passenger train service is the Amtrak station in Truckee , and is served by Amtrak's train, the California Zephyr , which runs daily between Chicago and the San Francisco Bay Area.

South Tahoe Area Transit Authority is primary mass transportation provider. Visitors can reach Lake Tahoe under ideal conditions within two hours from the Sacramento area, one hour from Reno or thirty minutes from Carson City. In winter months, chains or snow tires are often necessary to reach Tahoe from any direction. Traffic can be heavy on weekends due to tourists if not also from weather. Route 50 , and Nevada State Route via Reno. Most of the highways accessing and encircling Lake Tahoe are paved two-lane mountain roads.

US 50 is a four-lane highway from the canyon of the South Fork American River at Riverton, over the Sierra Nevada at Echo Summit, and into the Lake Tahoe Basin, is a mainly two-lane road passing south of the lake and along part of the eastern shore.

Farther along are communities such as Meeks Bay and Tahoe City. Finally, the highway turns away from the lake and heads northwest toward Truckee. Route 28 returns along the eastern shore to US 50 near Spooner Lake. Placer County. El Dorado County. In September the Ponderosa Ranch closed its doors, after being sold to developer David Duffield for an undisclosed price. The film The Godfather Part II used the lakeside estate Fleur de Lac as the location of several scenes, including the elaborate First Communion celebration, the Senator's shakedown attempt of Michael, the assassination attempt on Michael, Michael disowning Fredo, Carmela Corleone's funeral, Fredo's execution while fishing, and the closing scene of Michael sitting alone outside.

The surrounding lakeside area has been developed into a private gated condominium community and some of the buildings of the "Corleone compound" still exist, including the boathouse. The film Last Weekend , starring Patricia Clarkson and directed by Tom Dolby and Tom Williams, used the west shore lakefront home of Ray and Dagmar Dolby as the primary location for its interiors and exteriors.

British rock band A 's song " Here We Go Again I Love Lake Tahoe " and the accompanying music video centers around the band's love for the lake and the surrounding holiday locations. The lake is mentioned in the lyrics to the song "Unfair" by cult indie rock band Pavement. The lake is the setting for Kate Bush 's song of the same name from the album 50 Words for Snow. In the song, a woman who drowned in the lake is reunited with her beloved dog in the afterlife.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Lake in California and Nevada, United States. This article is about the United States lake. For the film, see Lake Tahoe film. For other uses, see Tahoe disambiguation. Body of water. The south shore of Lake Tahoe in California, as seen from the west shore. Main article: Ecology of the Sierra Nevada. See also: List of Lake Tahoe inflow streams.

United States Geological Survey. Retrieved October 26, Tahoe History. February 28, Archived from the original on July 4, Retrieved December 17, Lake Tahoe Visitors Authority.

Porters Tahoe. Archived from the original on January 2, Nevada Appeal. Retrieved October 29, Retrieved January 15, Davenport ScholarWorks, University of Nevada, Reno. Accessed 1 Jan Retrieved October 31, Retrieved June 22, An Introduction to Green Flashes. San Diego State University. Retrieved July 10, June 10, Archived from the original on February 22, Retrieved April 14, Retrieved December 22, January Bibcode : Geo ISSN San Francisco Chronicle.

Archived from the original on June 7, Retrieved September 18, April Bulletin of the Seismological Society of America. Bibcode : BuSSA.. Bibcode : Geosp Lake Tahoe Basin Management Unit. Forest Service, U. Department of Agriculture. Archived from the original on May 10, Retrieved June 20, Geophysical Research Letters. Bibcode : GeoRL..

S2CID July Geological Society of Australia. Desert Research Institute. State of California, Department of Water Resources. Archived from the original on December 19, Western Regional Climate Center. Retrieved April 13, Lokteff; Brett B. Wheaton Transactions of the American Fisheries Society. Retrieved June 17, Three Against the Wilderness.

Victoria, British Columbia: Touchwood. ISBN Northstar-at-Tahoe Resort. Archived from the original on January 19, Retrieved November 15, May 17, Retrieved July 17, Active NorCal.

May 28, Sunset Magazine. Retrieved May 8, California Fish and Game. Archived from the original PDF on July 20, Retrieved January 17, Tahoe Arts and Mountain Culture. July 20, Archived from the original on June 9, Retrieved August 16, Moonshine Ink. Archived from the original on March 3, Spring Lanman; H. Perryman; B. Dolman; Charles D. James Spring Army Corps of Engineers Sacramento District. Archived from the original PDF on October 11, Retrieved September 6, Humboldt State University, Natural Resources.

Los Angeles Times. August 9, Retrieved October 8, Tahoe Regional Planning Association. Archived from the original on February 5, Archived from the original on March 15, Retrieved May 9, South Lake Tahoe Chamber of Commerce. Archived from the original on May 2, Virginia City Territorial Enterprise. Retrieved January 2, — via www. The Innocents Abroad. Mineola, NY: Dover Publications. ISBN X. California Place Names: The origin and etymology of current geographical names. Retrieved December 27, Retrieved November 24, Railroads and Steamers of Lake Tahoe.

San Mateo, California: Francis Guido. Doug Steps Out. Retrieved September 3, Sierra Sun. Lahontan Basin Area Office. Bureau of Reclamation. Archived from the original on October 12, Las Vegas Review-Journal. Archived from the original on February 15, Retrieved June 4, Nevada , 44 U.

The first, the "north-south" segment, commences on the Oregon border at the intersection of the 42d parallel and the th meridian and runs south along that meridian to the 39th parallel. And the second, the "oblique" segment, begins at that parallel and runs in a southeasterly direction to the point where the Colorado River crosses the 35th parallel.

XII In , when California was admitted to the Union, Congress approved the Constitution, and with it California's eastern boundary. Act of Sept. Survey Marks and Datasheets. Groundspeak, Inc. The stone projects about 14 inches above ground, and was not disturbed when a granite monument was placed alongside it in June, The monument was set in concrete, and the hole was enlarged so as to include the old stone in the concrete mass.

Being the first stone in the oblique boundary, it was called No. The monument is of granite 6 feet long, 12 by 12 inches at the base and 6 by 6 inches at the top, weight about pounds. The boundary monuments are designated as No. National Park Service. Between and , six different surveys of California's eastern boundary were made.

None of them agreed as to the location of the boundary or the th degree of longitude. Various surveys were conducted in , , , and The Von Schmidt survey is the only one that was clearly marked along its entire length with stone, rock, wood and iron markers. The survey also was accepted longer than any other survey before its inaccuracy became widely known. It was not until that the Von Schmidt line was found to be 1, to 1, feet too far west.

However, even after , the Von Schmidt line remained the accepted boundary, and is still used more today than the more accurate version. Oddly enough, both the and lines have been recognized and are used by both California and Nevada. Archived from the original on April 2, Retrieved April 27, The south face has the lettering inscribed — longitude west of Greenwich A.

Von Schmidt U. It was placed near the old blocks that mark the astronomical station of Van Schmidt. South Lake Tahoe, Calif. Archived from the original on August 25, United States. Internal waters of the United States not subject to tidal influence that Are or have been used, or are or have been susceptible for use, by themselves or in connection with other waters, as highways for substantial interstate or foreign commerce , notwithstanding natural or man-made obstructions that require portage United States , US Supreme Court of the United States December 4, "four tests for determining what constitutes navigable waters: whether the body of water 1 is subject to the ebb and flow of the tide, 2 connects with a continuous interstate waterway, 3 has navigable capacity, and 4 is actually navigable.

Using these tests, courts have held that bodies of water much smaller than lakes and rivers also constitute navigable waters. Even shallow streams that are traversable only by canoe have met the test. I've not been on a sled in two weeks or skied , which sucksballs, bent the feces out of my steering post with my thigh on the SWT whilst effing around near Steamboat.

Thought I crossed the creek 60' back there. Turns out I'd not. Giant hematoma, could not walk for a few days, super. You should move to tahoe, no partners needed. That was a pretty quick deceleration. How long did it take to get the machine out? I had a buddy hit an arroyo in the desert by Grand junction like that on a dirtbike. It messed him up for the rest of the season.

That's a lot of what I'm talking about. We've got a couple of drainages we go up and some climbs and descents into and out of drainages that once you're there, you're all good on anything. But there's some gnarly white knuckle shit to get there Some of this stuff still sketches me out on an M8. It's not the kind of thing most first year sledders would be trying anyway so it's kind of a moot point I guess.

But first year sledders sometimes turn into 2nd year sledders. Some of the cabin hut trips I want to do though But I still hold that a first year sledder should learn how to ride on a light, capable mtn sled.

Then they can know how to adjust to make a bigger sled do things. That creek looks embarassing. Heal up. At least you guys have snow. There are some things you'll find for cheap that kinda look like snowmobiles but they aren't.

That and later polaris made is still the best motor they ever produced. My vote is for one of those or the arctic cat. All should be able to found in your price range. It messed him up for the rest of the season Thanks to a group of guys from Iowa, about 20 minutes.

SUPER thankful they showed, it'd have been a long, long dig on my own was out with my kid, she's rad, but does not possess the strength of 6 Iowans. Would have been measured in hours without them, they just lifted the front straight up, whacked throttle, bam, it was on a 45d angle up the ramp.

Was pretty worried about the rest of my season up until yesterday - was getting huge pain in my lower leg, seemed like compartment syndrome, but that's sorted itself out.

Took a full two weeks to get there, and I still have a giant lump of crap on my quad. No es bueno. Was this a dis on the sleds Polaris made those years? It wasn't a snowmobile. It was kind of shaped like one and had what one could if generous call a 'motor'. But it wasn't a sled.

There's a reason for what you'll find. There's probably a good chunk of truth to that. Learning on this thing would have been a trick; I'm by no means a "good" rider, but I can get around OK - I'm still often impressed at what the swt WILL do, but I'm only trying half of that stuff because I know my other sleds can do it, so why not this one?

That thing is a riot. It is harder to move around on set up snow, but if it is set up, you can go straight up. My original sled - 03 Summit , trailing arm sled with a " track - is still around. Just as easy or not-easy, compared to a new sled to ride, it'll outclimb the ZX , shrug, it is rad. I like it. The XM, otoh, runs circles around the XU. Thanks to a group of guys from Iowa, about 20 minutes. Good to hear that you got that out easily. I had a compartment syndrome in my lower leg from a bad break in and almost lost my leg to loss of blood flow.

Massage the heck out of that leg and flush out the congealed blood that is probably in there. I am wasting a lot of time here this winter since I am taking it easy following a lot of shoulder work after a dirt bike wreck in September.

I owned one. Good to know. I am selling my 02 RMK since I am not going to be using it this season, but next year I will be in the market for another used sled, but newer than my current on. I will read up on the sleds a little bit more. I'd hate to buy a shitty sled. Yeah, I had a vague idea of what compartment syndrome was all about until this little fiasco. Thanks for the advice; massaging the lump is freaking disgusting, but yeah. Hope the shoulder gets better. I got rid of my dirtbikes a few years ago, back to mountain bikes for me - had a 4th gear off in the woods, got really lucky, decided they were going to kill me.

I do stupid things with motors. New sled next year, though, that'll be good! I haven't convinced most of my friends to get sleds yet, so I'm definitely interested in getting out. Experienced BC skier, avy savy, total beater on a sled. Front range weekend warrior status as well. That type of stuck happen on the regular especially early season.

I think the whole "what is the minimum sled that will work" thing comes down to what you are doing. Are you just riding 2-up into a meadow on roads then skinning?

Are you experienced buddies with better sled going in and building roads early season? Are you seriously boondocking looking for new zones? Going in with snowshoes and building trails in the willows and packing out the sidehills to our favorite zones. It gets kinda old on the dudes with the good sleds doing the hard work however. Sled wise, I'm not a homer for any brand. We don't have a good ski doo dealer so I keep that in consideration.

This seems to be the best you can do for value. FWIW think I'd be doing mostly 1. Couple buddies here do have a sleds but realistically I won't be going many places without prior sled traffic. Def not 3. The exception is there are a few ski zones up on glaciers here that have steep pitches to get up. I think prices here in Canada are a bit higher than you guys are quoting. I get that the older sleds won't handle as nice, but surely they'd be fine for a cheaper mostly access sled? Re engine size, again I get the s all weigh similar.

How about a for a newbie? Too much? I don't blow belts, chains or anything like that, only broke shocky springs on the skid Good to know I'll be able to find something in budget. I would definitely figure out your import tax situation. It might not be worth it but it's worth checking into. Sled forums have lots of threads about importing sleds to Canada. Mountain riding kicks the crap out the chassis and suspension. Any issues getting parts for older sleds like that?

Hey, Im also 25 and own a Doo summit and live south of Denver near cherry creek reservoir. I work downtown. Also avy savy, and have all gear including a float pack. I have tons of BC days under my belt, but I don't get out on my sled nearly as much as I would like, and I am still learning Let me know if you want to get out sometime. Send me a PM or something and Ill get back to ya.. Not sure about location, I'm in CO, but I had a 99 x for a few seasons - it was a decent sled.

Jordan Wanna go snowmobiling this weekend? Jordan Sweeeeet. I'm all booked this weekend but I'll shoot out some PMs sometime next week. I would expect to put out some money initially. Most used sleds need a really good servicing. Just asking hypothetical q's, haven't looked hard enough yet.

Hoping to get something for next winter. Let me know if you hear of any decent used sleds for sale. I hear so many fond memory stories about these going everywhere, great reliability, easy and cheap to fix. There are a few ad's for early's Polaris s. Are they worthwhile? Some sleds are headaches regardless of brand.

Dont believe the hype. I practically gave my away, but it went to a skier, so that's OK. The has a bad rap - not justified if you ask me, mine was bomber - but yeah. Dunno about other brands. I'm a Doo guy because a good friend works at a Doo shop.

I'm pretty sure all of them suck sometimes. I would wait until spring, big savings. My buddy has one, I think he's on motor Sorry but your utility sled wouldnt be getting you anywhere on a pow day, although it would be most amusing to watch someone try to double up the gauntlet or S-Chute on one.

Long tracks, 2. Totally different kind of utility. I feel like mannix keeps trying to sell everybody rax skis. You just don't know man!! Gotta try'em! It's a revolution! I'm skiing tomorrow, off a utility. Glad Colorado is flat, with roads everywharrrrrrr Iain errr, hmmm, what we're doing tomorrow could be done off a cc trail sled Pehota says he drove a Tundra up the S chute 20 yrs ago Now its just another blip in the daily commute because modern technology has evolved and we now have big powerful mtn sleds!

Using a tool for its intended purpose is common sense, but there's one in every crowd, so to speak. Foon is one of the most humble, under rated mountain mad men you will never meet.

Dude is a ninja. I believe it! Pehota is a total badass. It was probably late in the spring when it was the lowest angle of approach and hero climbing snow.. If you're driving up flat roads and skinning and skiing low angle pow I'm sure a utility sled will do the trick. Or if its not super deep snow or fresh. Having helped a ton of people get into the sport and into their first machines, avoiding a ticking time bomb with an engine that is about to grenade is key.

All sleds will blow around km, just a matter of time. Do you want something just to go up flat groomed trails? Or do you want something that will give you room to grow and not be that person getting stuck all the time that nobody wants to ride with because they struggle to get around That being said, extremely talented riders with experience can get around with anything.

Not saying that's me, but I made a " with a 2. I'm now on a " and it's so much easier for doing what I want to do save for jumping, the " was preferable. As for brands, any will do, except for Yamaha. The guys that try to lighten them up have nothing but mechanical problems and I've towed so many of them out over the years.

More than happy to answer questions, but it really depends on what you want to do with your machine, where you ride, who you want to ride with, your budget and your experience with wrenching and if you have your own tools or not. Crappy ending to an amazing day of skiing. Super tired and I suck at sledding sometimes. Coulda been a lot worse I didn't hit the throttle. The tree that clotheslined me did luckily.

Every thing is fine except my hammy and ass, I managed to get my hands up on the tree. Not sure if the ski rack hit it as I got shot off the sled or if it got hit by the track when the throttle went.

I got lucky It was a long sled back to the truck with a bum leg. But you succeeded at the most important part: if you're gonna fuck up, at least get it on video. At least you saved it from rolling to the bottom!

I did something similar on a climb the other day, sans tree. Breaking trail up a steep off camber climb to a ridge line. Almost at the top of the ridge and hit a deep pocket of rotten wind deposit snow, so I throttled down hard, but then I hit the wind slab crust at the ridge line with it pinned and got bucked off my sled backwards.

Momentum carried sled forward a little, but then she started the back wards slide into eventual roll into trees below. As it was going by, I managed to grab throttle and bury the track in the wind deposit before it rolled back down the climb and into a bunch of trees. Could have gone horribly wrong grabbing the throttle like that, but it was the best feeling of stuck ever! Parting out an 05 M7 if anyone needs anything.

PM'd you. Selling the hood? Picking up my new used sled tomorrow. Giving my '96 bought last year to my bro Eldereldo. I've nicknamed it "the gateway drug.

New ride looks just like photo I posted above, but with some scrapes and scratches. Wickedly powerful, but surprisingly well behaved at lower RPMs due to the torque. Still got lots to learn, so being respectful in the meantime. Gerome and dheli: you guys get in touch whenever you need to get that out of your system. Those things have been better to me than skiing the last two years :D Bummer shadam.

You're on a rev right? At least parts are easy to come by in your neck of the woods. If it were ME on the sled, it would be the beginnings of a lawn-dart;. Glad you guys got snow! Shit, that sucks. Time to haul in a replacement engine and do some field wrenching.

What sled did you get? Okay, now I know it's brett :D. Shadam, that sucks. Good luck on the retrieval. Mannix, the snow was hero quality with regard to being grippy and being able to sled anywhere. Dhelihiker had no issues dropping that line, although I know what you mean when it comes to dropping cornices.

I've had to replace a sled ski before after dropping a similar feature. Kidwoo, yeah, let's get after it! We tried sled skiing at mt rose the day before too, but the cold storm made the snow bulletproof and not so fun to ski, but still amusing on the sled. I got scared! It was fun to move around the mountains, the next big dump could actually be fun.

Looking to get an access sled. Just a shitty little sled to get me up logging roads and stuff. Any recommended reading for a sled jong to help decide what to get?

Read this thread from page 1. Usually among the search results will be threads from various snowmobile forums, such as "Is this a good used sled to buy? As always take with a huge grain of salt people's opinions, but often you will find good info on specific issues with certain engines, etc that are now well recognized.

Whats up Woo you sledding this weekend? Lets do this. Still got my number? If not, pm me yours. Tis the season to get sendy! Selling my M8 to cover medical bills. This thing is really fucking fun, and in very nice shape.

Brings a tear to my eye Or maybe not Anyone confirm? Wanting to up grade from my 98 rmk I'm a bit fed up with the few options and subsequent shitty fit I get in freeride touring style boots, so I'm thinking of just saying fuck it and going for alpine boots for sled access.

Do alpine boots suck really badly on a sled? I've gone back to snowboarding if we're doing sled laps, and skiing when it's a touring day. Yeah, they suck a lot, but I do it because I'm stubborn and don't love at boots.

Last year I had NEOS and they helped a bunch, but got torn up quickly by the sled and by my ski boots. Would jump on it if I wasn't 3, miles away. Bought a trailer from Gone Skiing, reputable seller. I don't have the money, but don't live mi away. How about you pay for it and I ride it? I would love to have a sled back in CO, this is a win win for everyone!

Can I keep it in your garage? Hell yea! Molly is ronery. Every year it seems like I sled more and ski less. I guess that's what happens when you start riding a sled like you ski lines. Here's my edit from the season. Next year, I'm not buying a pass to CB. All BC with, hopefully a ton of pow on skis and my sled. Sled is stock except for a can and an adjustable riser.

I'm 5'9" and the stock doo bars are WAY too tall. The black bars were just a bandaide to get through the rest of the season when the stock bars broke. Looking for a rack to carry both skis and snowboards. Both the cheetah and tiny mo pro look nice. I've used DIY racks the past few season but have always been impressed by Cheetah's racks. Any input appreciated. The accessory list has a snowboard rack and ski rack but no mention if they are the same rack that Can carry both without swapping out for longer ratchet strap.

The cheetah has dual use straps but it looks a bit hectic where as the tiny mo pros accommodates the two via the yoke and not the strap hardware.

The advantage to CFR is ability to strap all sorts of other crap to the rack. CFR also makes a quick release if you want to remove for slednecking around in deep pow. Polaris but yea looking for a rack too for carrying gear. Going to Give the tiny mo pro rack a try.

Pretty much. I futzed around with homemade racks, eventually bought a CFR. Much better. It is strictly an access sled, though. If you can weld, it is a slick design. Basically, two 1.

Rear tube is the "shoulder," front tube is the "hand," if you were carrying skis over your shoulder. Affix with long Voile rubber straps. Tips do eat up a little running board space, but not terrible less than a CFR. Skis are horizontal - no threat of hooking a tip while laying the sled over. Rack is not in the way, at all. I mounted it as far back as I could, tunnel is fine, although only miles on that sled.

I like. Short, right answer, though, the CFR is the way, especially if you're just starting out - it is enough of a gong show at first just trying to make all this crap work together, the last thing you need is gear falling off the rickshaw. This is about a hundred bucks cheaper then the CFR, 5yr warranty on yokes. Had a good chat with the owner. I always seem to gravitate towards things that are adjustable, for good or bad.

But the cfr rack is The tmp rack runs After talking with him on the phone he offered up a demo rack that knocked the price down even more. Its strong, can hold 4 pairs of skis, and is fast. But, it sticks out from the sides of the tunnel and is a bit of a hazard when I fall off, starting to think about a redesign. I want to move the attachment points in so they are fully behind the seat, but this will push the centroid of the skis back on the tunnel.

I've heard a lot of concern in the past about putting too much stress on the tunnel. Has anyone actually experienced significant damage to their tunnel from a ski rack back there? The tunnel shape is basically like a beam, and people rail on their tunnels all the time when towing, moving, and getting their sleds unstuck. I could easily reinforce the tunnel with some angle iron or the like. I think I'm most worried about some sort of damage via twisting which would be harder to reinforce and protect against.

Only if you're not as awesome as I am at making a rack. It does some things that CFR finally started doing single pair along the running boards for punching trail and riding unhindered.

But I spent like 90 bucks, have used it for three years and have zero interest in buying anything else. I'll get some pics tonight. Pics or it didn't happen! I wanna see it! No idea if this is related to stress from my ski rack. Regardless, gonna reinforce the tunnel a bit with the new rack design. Sorry about the lag. Got tied up in some bike stuff. This is on a Arctic Cat M8, tunnel.

I had to track down some superlong ladder straps that were rubberized but I needed them to fit skis and a snowboard. The rails I got from a sled rack company called vortech.

I just shortened and redrilled them. JPG The angle aluminum is riveted into the same holes for my cooler. I drilled those out and put in some steel ones. JPG This is the big thing about premade racks that bugs me.

Mounting skis along the running boards while ALSO allowing for a double up mount. To me this is absolutely the most important part. I've seen racks that allow you to do this along the tunnel, but then they can't carry another pair of skis. But ski boot SHELLS go in the snowboard binding baseplates while I break trail in my ski boot liners sitting in some old snowboard boots. JPG But I've ridden all day long like this, rolling the sled out of holes, sidehilling all day, jumping off cornices, hitting hips Shit is out of the way.

You barely notice the skis are even there. This isn't new or anything but I can't stand bobbling around with a CFR rack with a pair of skis hanging way off the back. I don't want shit hanging off the back of my sled when I'm punching trail in deep snow. Or just banging on a bunch of whoops for an hour down a road. To help the tunnel mount, I put in a smaller piece of angle aluminum in the footwells to hold the tips, just to keep the skis snug. JPG Gettin laps mode. Snowboard boots I rode out in go on, two pairs of skis along the tunnel, not sky high in the air so rolling the beast goes easy and doesn't fuck skis up.

JPG But anyway. That was just shy of a hundred bucks. Used for a while now and I have zero need for a dollar rack that still doesn't do the things I want. The tinymopros and CFRs are good ready made setups but I'd still be changing things on them to get the tunnel mounted stuff setup for riding out in fresh snow. Cool design. I like how the aluminium angle iron doubles as a tunnel stiffener.

Patent that shit. The angles remind me of the tmp. Seems that would really help strengthen the tunnel. A few years ago I did the full boot swap. I couldn't ski my feet were so pinched. I just found a snowboard boot that's a size bigger than what I'd really wear and it works pretty well with intuitions. It's even colder where you are so that must be brutal. Seems that would really help strengthen the tunnel Yeah the angle plates on theirs looks like a tunnel support too So it's definitely not similar to the ski angle on the tmp.

That's the kind of picky shit I'm talking about though. I don't want those bigass fins sticking up off the back of my tunnel when I'm not riding with skis, OR have the skis sticking up that much when I am.

Having them angled up like the tmp or CFR racks does make getting to the bumper just a tad easier but that's literally it. If I get stuck with skis on, you can still get two people on my bumper, you just have to reach one arm over a pair. That's about the only real downfall of mine, but keeping things tight when rolling the sled is more important IMO.

And by the time I have two pairs on, we're riding a packed track anyway so it's rarely an issue until we fuck up a tandem climb. If I were to buy a full deal and didn't want to mess with making one, I'd definitely buy the tmp over anything else.

Those things do look really really good and way more low profile than the cfrs. I think you could easily modify the tmp ones to do the double duty carrying setup like mine. You'd have to get the rear blocks further out though. That's what makes it work. They look parallel as is. You put a lot of thought into that one, nice work kidwoo, and thanks for posting all the pics. Hoping to have my new rack done this weekend. Will post pics. So damn good. You can ride all day without seeing the hood of your sled and never have to kick your boards once.

They're so stiff it actually makes popping over on a quick sidehill much easier too. I'm sure the skinz and some of the others are just as good but these are cheaper. Getting on the sled train this year. I'd personally hold out for something a little more stock. Not sure what a Revolt motor is, but why'd the first one only last miles?

I think 'revolt' is an auto-corrected 'rebuilt'. Find out if it was rebuilt because it blew a piston or was rebuilt because the owner just wanted the stock pistons out of there. But that phase of dragon motors are kind of notorious for blowing up pistons.

For that money and era I'd look for an m8. For even cheaper though, I'd also look for a polaris I can personally vouch for this sled. Owner is a pro photog who used it just to get out and set up shots. People goving him shit about it being a back up sled since the miles are so low. I dont know crap about cats, but Kidwoo can probably elaborate. Probably willing to dicker on price as everyone around here is jonesing to get on a new XM!

Seems like a lot of sleds on for a fairly good price there in the Pemby area. More so then on Calgary Kijiji anyways. Pretty low for a 4 yr old sled. I put k on an XM last season alone. Like I said, Kidwoo can probably attest to it going a lot farther than that. Everyone around here is jumping on the XM bandwagon, so a glut of yr old sleds on the mkt for cheap Nobody wants that anymore! Hmmm, well it is the time to pounce. Pemberton is just much faro to go just to get a sled haha, but if the price was right!

Thanks again for that link I msged him to see whats up. Here's my annual annoying used sled speech For the grand range, right now I honestly think the m8s are your best bet. They've got the most reliable engines of that time period of the big three yamaha 4 strokes don't count unless you really want to hate learning how to sled , and they've got a handling characteristic that is a lot easier to learn on. Skidoo and next year at least polaris have newer motors in their sleds.

Cat is still using the same one. That should tell you something. The IQ polaris sleds handle really similarly but have fuck all for motor reliability in the s. The s are better. I'd honestly buy a 4k skidoo rev from before I'd buy anything xp from skidoo. They're harder to learn on in anything but bottomless snow and each year had clutch or motor issues up until The handling thing is preference though.

Watch 20 dudes from whistler jump on my case now :D The issues with that era of arctic cat are are really just one thing: The bearing that the drive shaft runs on from the gearbox. You have to replace this if it hasn't been done already. You'll see this mentioned in a lot of the ads for these 'bearing updated' etc.

Everything will work fine with the stock bearing but if it's got 1k miles on it, I'd bet my left nut that the bearing is in pieces when you pull it out. Those pieces fall into a gear transfer box. Not a biggie but you really should do it. There are some minor cheap or free things you should do to them but the motors last. My personal 'do not buy' list: polaris anything. Total pieces of shit.

Fucked up motor that they abandoned really quickly for a reason. Motors were fine but so much else wasn't arctic cat, new chassis, and all kinds of fucked up everything My personal 'money years' for sleds skidoo revs or earlier if pistons were changed arctic cat polaris or s Or ANY of the brand spankin new ones Thanks dude, thats a big help.

There's a reason for the polaris Everything else on that list, you can find examples that have been running fine for years with happy owners, my gripes are more of a statistical thing from seeing friends' sleds and reading up on them and seeing trends.

Plus personal handling preferences. But dear god, just do not buy those years of polaris Is this when I start babbling about utility sleds? On the even cheaper side, I have a personal affinity for the ZX Summit I put a " track on it, and a whole bunch of fuel and oil. No, it is not an No, it does not work nearly as well in deep snow.

An 06 Rev is a better sled in every way. IMHO, avoid s of that era, if-not-when as far as assploding. New top ends every mi seems to prevent that, but The in Skidoo from ish is kinda a pile.

My ZX is pushing 6k miles on it - had 3k when I bought it - has plenty of compression, starts easily, shrug, I really like that sled. It was not an enormously deep day, but deepish. I could DO it, sure, but it took every bit of sledding skill I had to do it admittedly, not much. Got back on XM, uhhh, yeah. Pretty much zero effort on the XM. The new stuff IS better. Lots better. I'll probably get flamed for this one, but another possibly good option for the mechanically inclined is the Summit RT I know, I know, motors grenade left and right The RT1k had a goofy fuel system, was super sensitive to grounds, complicated exhaust valves, roughly sixty automotive style relays, it was a complicated, heavy pig of a sled.

I got one several years ago on the cheap - insurance total, front cooler had cracked. I bypassed the front cooler, put it back together with the remaining two coolers. Mine was an 05; in 06 they eliminated the rear cooler and halved the tunnel cooler, so I figured I could get away with it.

Figured correctly - scratchers needed, put a temp gauge out of a MXZX , replaced the low pressure fuel pump, fixed grounds, made sure relays were happy, addressed the filtration issue, clutched it right, derp, forget what else - oh, added a thermostat out of an XP, uhhh, I did a BUNCH of cheap, preventative stuff to that sled.

I rode it for two years, sold it to a guy in Summit County - last I heard, it was doing fine. I think it had mi on it when I sold it, I bought it with I put a bunch of miles on it. I actually really liked that sled as an access tool - and there's nothing really wrong with the MOTOR, it is all the stuff that keeps the motor happy that effs up - which in turn, takes the motor out.

Fix that stuff read Dootalk or pm me, I can regurgitate most of it , they're really pretty reliable - and unreal uphill transport devices. I'd not personally recommend spending Real Money on one.

AND you're mechanically inclined, AND you read the volumes of "how to keep your 1k alive," AND you're not afraid of it, it is a potentially good option.

The has a long tunnel - you can make a rack that puts the skis on top of the tunnel - no running board wasted. I luv my rt I'm considering upgrading to a bigbore xp with a buncha mods. If you dont mind having no reverse the m7 is pound for pound the best most reliable sled out there. They have better diamond drive bearings than the m8, weigh less and have only 10hp less until the ho m8 came out. Thanks again guys more things to look into. What are some good snowmobile forms to look into as well.

Mannix you mentioned doo talk? Be nice to read up on some more stuff I should be getting to know about them. Obviously engines still explode but mannix you mentioned they got a lot better? Still plan to have some money aside but the more the merrier if I can still get the job done. I'm sure i'll wack into a tree or six with my luck so we'll see.

Nutshell - skidoo cc pistons need replacing every miles on the earlier motors. Anything more, piston skirts are threatening to break off. The 07 XRS Summit is a mixed bag - not sure on specifics, but there were engine issues with that sled, someone will likely chime in. Seems to me that the 07 issues were severe enough that it has probably already happened to all of them.

Give or take. HP per cc is absurd on sleds - that's like a hp VW Rabbit. Or Honda Civic. Sure, two strokes make more power per cc than four, but still - HUGE specific output. They're pretty high strung out of the box. Interestingly, the ish s did not suffer the same failure rate in the flatlands - no real surprise, you can't load a sled on a lake like you can in two feet of snow on a 30d slope.

That said, they're ALL a crapshoot. The - up to 03, unfortunately - is also virtually indestructible. I'm the minority, but depending on where you are, what your access is like, I'd personally not discount s. I DO know my had enough power. A only makes a little 10hp less. We got around Just Fine on a cc ZX for several seasons.

Sure, it got easier with modern chassis and more power, but it can be done. Where are you? That could play into it - not only terrain, but dealer - a good friend of mine is a mechanic at a local Skidoo shop - no brainer for me. A good dealer is pretty critical, these piles of crap DO break, wear out, cause problems.

Another fun tidbit - you pretty much NEED two sleds. Sure, plenty of people go out on just one, take turns skiing, or two on the sled, one on a rope, etc etc etc. Bear that in mind, find local people who are doing it, etc. I'm with kidwoo: " skidoo revs or earlier if pistons were changed " and whoever rec'd the M7 - virtually everyone I know who had one of those liked it.

I've not personally heard much good about Polaris anythings - not saying they're bad, but I can't keep track of which ones to avoid, the s sucked, this motor popped, that motor popped, uhhhh what?

Again, dealer. Good Polaris dealer? Probably good things to be had. Those are old-tech trailing arm boats, though. My mechanic friend told me not to ride a Rev til I thought I could afford one. He was right. The new stuff is WAY better, kinda akin to straight skis in deep snow vs today's skis.

It is kinda a pain to sort it all out at first; I was lucky, mechanic friend narrowed it down for me. I'll be based out of Golden BC, loads of logging roads in the area for access but I don't want to limit myself to just that. Mechanically I have little experience but can usually pick up basic things fairly quickly. If my sled is out of action for 2 weeks not the end of the world as I don't work in the winter so will have plenty of time to work on it and I can still rip Kicking Horse and ski tour rogers pass.

I have a few buddies in the area with sleds. Some with experience some new to the game like me. One plus side is I know I'm capable of skinning 30kms out of somewhere if everything goes to fucking hell though I really really really don't want to do that. Looking to sled ski, lap terrain, tandem up for laps. If the terrain dictates no problems tossing on skins and doing quick laps as well.

Really haven't gotten out yet on a sled to much but i can see there are lots of logging roads that get you close but if you could get up a drainage average degrees but quite possibly no trail broken You would access much more. Total jong here really as to what is even possible on a sled especially a beginner Is ccs a terrible idea for a first sled.

Just saying because I have seen a few arctic cat ms for a decent price but really kind of wrote them off at least till I have a few years under my belt.

My price range is sitting around dollars. Currently working everyday and have an unknown amount of paychecks coming in from my old summer job damn government and being completely unorganized If my current job goes till mid December instead of November I could probably even bump that number up higher but don't see the need to spend extra cash If Its not really warranted.

I really don't think that there's such thing as "too much" sled for what we're doing. No idea if the ms are any good - a guy here had one, afaik, he liked it. Once in soft snow, though, shrug, yeah, it was fine. My Skidoo was a really good sled. They're different than, say, sportbikes or dirtbikes - putting a complete gaper on a one liter sportbike or open-class dirtbike is probably a bad idea. A cc sled will get you into just about as much trouble on an established trail from a power standpoint as an equivalent That's faster than most cars.

They're awful. I rode a fan Skidoo Freestyle a couple of years ago. It was a TON of fun, little and "light" and fun

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